1
00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:09,090
welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

2
00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:25,050
hello and welcome to the skeptics iron

3
00:00:31,710 --> 00:00:29,050
episode number 414 for the 22nd of sep

4
00:00:33,900 --> 00:00:31,720
tember 2016 Richardson is here with you

5
00:00:35,910 --> 00:00:33,910
from Sydney Australia and now you don't

6
00:00:37,830 --> 00:00:35,920
have to check your clocks or make sure

7
00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:37,840
you haven't fallen backwards into some

8
00:00:43,619 --> 00:00:39,850
sort of weird time warp and ended up in

9
00:00:46,380 --> 00:00:43,629
the future the skeptic zone is early

10
00:00:48,810 --> 00:00:46,390
normally comes out on the weekend as you

11
00:00:52,259 --> 00:00:48,820
know this week is coming out early to

12
00:00:54,690 --> 00:00:52,269
help to help our friend Ben Goldacre who

13
00:00:58,049 --> 00:00:54,700
is currently touring australia and new

14
00:01:01,319 --> 00:00:58,059
zealand and those people in Brisbane he

15
00:01:04,260 --> 00:01:01,329
is appearing tonight tonight you have

16
00:01:05,960 --> 00:01:04,270
time to get tickets to see Ben Goldacre

17
00:01:08,430 --> 00:01:05,970
coming up at the top of the show an

18
00:01:11,070 --> 00:01:08,440
interview with Ben Goldacre a couple of

19
00:01:13,499 --> 00:01:11,080
days ago here in Sydney I met up with a

20
00:01:16,609 --> 00:01:13,509
man at last been wanting to meet been

21
00:01:18,690 --> 00:01:16,619
for many years and we had a good chat

22
00:01:21,389 --> 00:01:18,700
it's interesting Ben what are

23
00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:21,399
interesting man barriers he likes to say

24
00:01:25,350 --> 00:01:23,410
he's an equal-opportunity quack buster

25
00:01:27,359 --> 00:01:25,360
in other words he doesn't confine

26
00:01:29,460 --> 00:01:27,369
himself to the outrageous claims and

27
00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:29,470
foolery of quacks and sharks and

28
00:01:35,490 --> 00:01:32,290
charlatans he also applies his critical

29
00:01:37,700 --> 00:01:35,500
thinking to a much broader scope really

30
00:01:40,679 --> 00:01:37,710
to pharmaceutical companies and other

31
00:01:43,679 --> 00:01:40,689
people who sadly from time to time

32
00:01:45,300 --> 00:01:43,689
indulge in dodgy science find out more

33
00:01:47,390 --> 00:01:45,310
in a couple of minutes with that my

34
00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:47,400
interview with Ben Goldacre and

35
00:01:52,260 --> 00:01:50,290
information also there about how you too

36
00:01:56,130 --> 00:01:52,270
can get to see him in Brisbane or

37
00:01:58,289 --> 00:01:56,140
Melbourne Auckland and Sydney following

38
00:02:01,530 --> 00:01:58,299
that it's our reporter shelly stock and

39
00:02:03,569 --> 00:02:01,540
with a piece about dr. google now this

40
00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:03,579
is something of course dr. HC a long

41
00:02:12,199 --> 00:02:07,450
time and noted reporter tackles shelly

42
00:02:15,479 --> 00:02:12,209
will bring us um her angles her view on

43
00:02:17,190 --> 00:02:15,489
dr. Google should you google dr. Google

44
00:02:20,509 --> 00:02:17,200
then to round off the show another

45
00:02:23,190 --> 00:02:20,519
report with the help of our friend

46
00:02:25,920 --> 00:02:23,200
reasonable Hank at the reasonable Hank

47
00:02:29,910 --> 00:02:25,930
blog and if you haven't checked out that

48
00:02:34,530 --> 00:02:29,920
blog you should because in the past week

49
00:02:36,539 --> 00:02:34,540
news came to us of a film

50
00:02:40,830 --> 00:02:36,549
of all in the state of Victoria who have

51
00:02:43,410 --> 00:02:40,840
slated the movie vax to be shown early

52
00:02:46,140 --> 00:02:43,420
next month I think needless to say this

53
00:02:48,660 --> 00:02:46,150
has caused great concern amongst her

54
00:02:52,380 --> 00:02:48,670
many members of the community we were

55
00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:52,390
contacted by somebody who was very

56
00:02:57,960 --> 00:02:55,090
concerned about this I help spread the

57
00:03:01,050 --> 00:02:57,970
word and pretty soon pretty soon

58
00:03:03,420 --> 00:03:01,060
reasonable Hank got onto the job and he

59
00:03:05,849 --> 00:03:03,430
and his team have uncovered some very

60
00:03:09,509 --> 00:03:05,859
disturbing information about that whole

61
00:03:11,009 --> 00:03:09,519
sorry affair but find out more towards

62
00:03:14,879 --> 00:03:11,019
the end of the show where we will be

63
00:03:18,300 --> 00:03:14,889
reporting about the proposed viewing

64
00:03:20,909 --> 00:03:18,310
those screening of the movie vax to next

65
00:03:23,550 --> 00:03:20,919
month here in Australia now let me bring

66
00:03:26,460 --> 00:03:23,560
up a bit of music here oh yes that's

67
00:03:28,830 --> 00:03:26,470
just that's just delightful if you

68
00:03:30,179 --> 00:03:28,840
haven't heard the Blue Castle podcast it

69
00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:30,189
might be of interest to you there's a

70
00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:32,530
link right on the homepage at skeptic

71
00:03:38,490 --> 00:03:36,250
zone TV now this is a podcast put out by

72
00:03:40,649 --> 00:03:38,500
my very own sisters and I'm very proud

73
00:03:44,699 --> 00:03:40,659
that I've done this and this is all

74
00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:44,709
about artistic women in Sydney who have

75
00:03:50,699 --> 00:03:47,250
made a business out of their artistic

76
00:03:53,339 --> 00:03:50,709
talents and skills nothing to do with

77
00:03:54,809 --> 00:03:53,349
skepticism but since it's my sisters I'm

78
00:03:57,390 --> 00:03:54,819
not allowed to promote it the Blue

79
00:03:59,219 --> 00:03:57,400
Castle podcast I think it will be of

80
00:04:03,119 --> 00:03:59,229
interest to many people check it out at

81
00:04:04,649 --> 00:04:03,129
skeptic zone TV I'm looking forward to

82
00:04:06,390 --> 00:04:04,659
meeting some skeptics and fans and

83
00:04:09,469 --> 00:04:06,400
others at the Australian skeptics dinner

84
00:04:11,610 --> 00:04:09,479
meeting with Lynn Kelly the noted author

85
00:04:13,409 --> 00:04:11,620
and I don't know if there are still

86
00:04:14,699 --> 00:04:13,419
tickets available but those people in

87
00:04:17,729 --> 00:04:14,709
Sydney if you're quick and go to

88
00:04:21,990 --> 00:04:17,739
skeptics condo day you you may be able

89
00:04:23,969 --> 00:04:22,000
to snap some up also this Saturday zone

90
00:04:27,170 --> 00:04:23,979
reporter Maynard and I and a couple of

91
00:04:29,490 --> 00:04:27,180
friends will be heading out to a

92
00:04:32,270 --> 00:04:29,500
paranormal convention for a couple of

93
00:04:35,339 --> 00:04:32,280
hours to do some interviews and

94
00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:35,349
reporting it's always a lot of fun i do

95
00:04:39,420 --> 00:04:37,210
enjoy going to paranormal conventions

96
00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:39,430
well maybe they should all be simply

97
00:04:44,100 --> 00:04:41,490
relabeled claims of the paranormal

98
00:04:45,870 --> 00:04:44,110
conventions maybe whenever you hear the

99
00:04:48,420 --> 00:04:45,880
word paranormal maybe if you put the

100
00:04:51,510 --> 00:04:48,430
words claims of the

101
00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:51,520
in front of it I'm a paranormal

102
00:04:55,020 --> 00:04:53,410
investigator well no actually you're a

103
00:04:57,750 --> 00:04:55,030
claims of the paranormal investigator

104
00:05:00,090 --> 00:04:57,760
does that work and now indulge me folks

105
00:05:04,700 --> 00:05:00,100
along the same line of thinking

106
00:05:08,100 --> 00:05:04,710
sometimes I wonder if homeopathy is real

107
00:05:11,790 --> 00:05:08,110
then what what I mean what I mean by

108
00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:11,800
that if if a homeopathic pill or liquid

109
00:05:18,870 --> 00:05:15,450
or whatever is simply the lack of

110
00:05:20,790 --> 00:05:18,880
ingredients so it's a sugar pill with no

111
00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:20,800
ingredients in it because after the

112
00:05:26,250 --> 00:05:22,690
homeopathic processing all the

113
00:05:29,130 --> 00:05:26,260
ingredients are removed oh if they were

114
00:05:30,540 --> 00:05:29,140
even there in the first place then and

115
00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:30,550
you're presented with a pill and they

116
00:05:37,020 --> 00:05:33,130
say this is a homeopathic pill is it

117
00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:37,030
does it even exists can a homeopathic

118
00:05:43,710 --> 00:05:41,650
pill actually be a thing hmm I should

119
00:05:46,650 --> 00:05:43,720
have asked Ben Goldacre that but now

120
00:05:49,830 --> 00:05:46,660
it's time for me to run downstairs run

121
00:05:52,380 --> 00:05:49,840
out the door run to my car drive to the

122
00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:52,390
tram now I'm letter to be lazy I just

123
00:05:58,260 --> 00:05:54,970
walk to the tram station or the light

124
00:06:01,590 --> 00:05:58,270
rail as they call it here travel to

125
00:06:03,710 --> 00:06:01,600
glebe get off their walk up the hill

126
00:06:07,020 --> 00:06:03,720
ugly point road and find myself in

127
00:06:09,270 --> 00:06:07,030
madame frou frou cafe madame frou frou

128
00:06:10,980 --> 00:06:09,280
on Glee Point Road where I often go for

129
00:06:13,020 --> 00:06:10,990
a coffee and meet up with me not to chat

130
00:06:16,110 --> 00:06:13,030
about the skeptic zone and other things

131
00:06:19,220 --> 00:06:16,120
and where may not and Tim Ferguson

132
00:06:23,730 --> 00:06:19,230
record the bunga bunga podcast at

133
00:06:25,740 --> 00:06:23,740
Maynard calm not a you big shout out to

134
00:06:28,170 --> 00:06:25,750
all my friends at Madame frou frou I'll

135
00:06:30,210 --> 00:06:28,180
be there soon and I'll order my favorite

136
00:06:32,670 --> 00:06:30,220
and they know that which is a flat white

137
00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:32,680
coffee with a lovely coffee aren't made

138
00:06:40,230 --> 00:06:38,530
by barista Ritu and oh I think some

139
00:06:41,910 --> 00:06:40,240
peanut butter toast on sourdough bread

140
00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:41,920
please if you can have that order ready

141
00:06:47,280 --> 00:06:45,010
for me I'll be there soon and while i'm

142
00:07:12,110 --> 00:06:47,290
enjoying thinking about that i hope you

143
00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:14,430
delighted to be here in Sydney to talk

144
00:07:19,439 --> 00:07:16,930
with the a man are wanting to a meet in

145
00:07:20,939 --> 00:07:19,449
person for many years now man has

146
00:07:23,730 --> 00:07:20,949
appeared on the skeptic zone but not

147
00:07:26,430 --> 00:07:23,740
since 2009 all the way from the UK it's

148
00:07:27,899 --> 00:07:26,440
been going hello Ben hey hello I mean

149
00:07:30,719 --> 00:07:27,909
you say all the way from the UK I've

150
00:07:32,309 --> 00:07:30,729
just been there for a few decades but it

151
00:07:34,260 --> 00:07:32,319
was still it's all the way from the UK

152
00:07:37,020 --> 00:07:34,270
I'd say I say that because it sounds

153
00:07:39,059 --> 00:07:37,030
exotic for the showing well you know I

154
00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:39,069
I'm traveling on an Australian passport

155
00:07:42,420 --> 00:07:40,810
in fact I'd like to do this interview in

156
00:07:45,029 --> 00:07:42,430
my Australian accent if that would be ok

157
00:07:47,580 --> 00:07:45,039
not deserve ok well let's go good luck

158
00:07:51,180 --> 00:07:47,590
ok well it's great to see you you're

159
00:07:53,670 --> 00:07:51,190
here brought out by the people at think

160
00:07:55,529 --> 00:07:53,680
ink thinking lovely people who I've

161
00:07:57,059 --> 00:07:55,539
worked for before number years about go

162
00:07:59,610 --> 00:07:57,069
about two years ago I was lucky enough

163
00:08:01,589 --> 00:07:59,620
to be the host interviewer for James

164
00:08:04,260 --> 00:08:01,599
Randi oh great for the James Randi to it

165
00:08:07,230 --> 00:08:04,270
and you're touring in fact you kick off

166
00:08:08,909 --> 00:08:07,240
on thursday night in Brisbane correct

167
00:08:11,430 --> 00:08:08,919
then you go to Melbourne Auckland and

168
00:08:13,050 --> 00:08:11,440
Sydney it's quite a busy schedule back

169
00:08:14,899 --> 00:08:13,060
to back yeah it's a real shame I was

170
00:08:18,059 --> 00:08:14,909
hoping to see more of Family and

171
00:08:19,589 --> 00:08:18,069
Australia but there it is there it is so

172
00:08:21,950 --> 00:08:19,599
folks there's the word before we get

173
00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:21,960
further on if you go to thinking dot org

174
00:08:27,899 --> 00:08:25,330
dot a you you can see the tour details

175
00:08:29,369 --> 00:08:27,909
and still have time to buy your tickets

176
00:08:31,379 --> 00:08:29,379
I'm certainly going to be turning up at

177
00:08:33,980 --> 00:08:31,389
the Sydney your Sydney talk and I'm

178
00:08:36,269 --> 00:08:33,990
looking forward very much to that Ben

179
00:08:38,490 --> 00:08:36,279
will be following you for years of

180
00:08:40,769 --> 00:08:38,500
course with bad science and things like

181
00:08:42,329 --> 00:08:40,779
that what was the genesis of putting bad

182
00:08:44,130 --> 00:08:42,339
in front of everything because it's

183
00:08:47,819 --> 00:08:44,140
wrong there's a lot of people now who do

184
00:08:51,810 --> 00:08:47,829
that uh I guess at the time I wanted to

185
00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:51,820
I wanted a label that turn to make sure

186
00:08:55,710 --> 00:08:53,170
you know it did what it said on the tin

187
00:08:57,960 --> 00:08:55,720
and bad science is fundamentally what

188
00:09:01,670 --> 00:08:57,970
I'm all about i I'm interested in how

189
00:09:05,790 --> 00:09:01,680
people misuse and misrepresent evidence

190
00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:05,800
in every possible sector so I'm not just

191
00:09:08,630 --> 00:09:07,930
after quacks 90 vaccination conspiracy

192
00:09:10,730 --> 00:09:08,640
theorists

193
00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:10,740
I'm an equal opportunities quack Buster

194
00:09:16,220 --> 00:09:14,010
so I go for dodgy politicians and PR

195
00:09:18,590 --> 00:09:16,230
people dodgy journalists but also bad

196
00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:18,600
behavior by drug companies bad behavior

197
00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:20,850
by academics themselves academic journal

198
00:09:26,660 --> 00:09:25,170
editors and so on so the beds really is

199
00:09:28,130 --> 00:09:26,670
the crux of what you've been

200
00:09:30,500 --> 00:09:28,140
concentrating on over the last few years

201
00:09:32,540 --> 00:09:30,510
and I think it is catchy isn't it to put

202
00:09:35,180 --> 00:09:32,550
something bad in front of of something

203
00:09:38,690 --> 00:09:35,190
you really it's for the media to I think

204
00:09:40,610 --> 00:09:38,700
it's it stands out yeah but also I mean

205
00:09:43,940 --> 00:09:40,620
um although all of my books have

206
00:09:45,230 --> 00:09:43,950
slightly smarmy titles and I'm not I'm

207
00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:45,240
not in the business of just going around

208
00:09:49,430 --> 00:09:47,250
saying what's why what's right and

209
00:09:52,850 --> 00:09:49,440
what's wrong yeah i'm interested in

210
00:09:54,350 --> 00:09:52,860
unpicking evidence and explaining how it

211
00:09:55,940 --> 00:09:54,360
falls short so really it's just a

212
00:09:58,190 --> 00:09:55,950
gimmick for explaining how science

213
00:09:59,300 --> 00:09:58,200
really works you take examples and

214
00:10:00,770 --> 00:09:59,310
people getting stuff roll and actually I

215
00:10:03,130 --> 00:10:00,780
think that matches the structure of

216
00:10:05,210 --> 00:10:03,140
science itself because science is about

217
00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:05,220
critically appraising the evidence for

218
00:10:09,620 --> 00:10:07,170
somebody else's position yeah you know

219
00:10:11,420 --> 00:10:09,630
it's a it's a bloodbath it's a fight but

220
00:10:13,550 --> 00:10:11,430
it's a professional one with rules and

221
00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:13,560
structures around it and actually with

222
00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:15,210
my more recent work like for example the

223
00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:17,730
compare trials project tracking how

224
00:10:22,190 --> 00:10:20,210
academic journal editors respond to

225
00:10:24,860 --> 00:10:22,200
notifications that we've been writing a

226
00:10:26,780 --> 00:10:24,870
batch of correction letters to academic

227
00:10:29,300 --> 00:10:26,790
journals where they've misreported

228
00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:29,310
clinical trials and this has been a

229
00:10:32,930 --> 00:10:31,050
really big project huge team of people

230
00:10:35,570 --> 00:10:32,940
in Oxford and that we've been running

231
00:10:38,420 --> 00:10:35,580
over the last nine months and it's

232
00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:38,430
really interesting to see how the

233
00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:40,050
structures of science themselves aren't

234
00:10:43,490 --> 00:10:41,490
working as advertised so

235
00:10:45,890 --> 00:10:43,500
post-publication peer review isn't

236
00:10:47,780 --> 00:10:45,900
really working properly journal editors

237
00:10:50,420 --> 00:10:47,790
and try lists behaving in really

238
00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:50,430
fascinating and often quite unimpressive

239
00:10:54,110 --> 00:10:51,810
ways when presented with these

240
00:10:56,660 --> 00:10:54,120
Corrections so I guess over the course

241
00:10:59,180 --> 00:10:56,670
of the last decade my work has moved on

242
00:11:00,650 --> 00:10:59,190
and got nerdier an earlier as time

243
00:11:03,260 --> 00:11:00,660
passes and got into more and more

244
00:11:05,690 --> 00:11:03,270
technical corners but I think you know

245
00:11:07,550 --> 00:11:05,700
the kind of traditional skeptic audience

246
00:11:08,540 --> 00:11:07,560
and I'm not sure identifies the

247
00:11:10,340 --> 00:11:08,550
scripting own because I'm just not

248
00:11:12,470 --> 00:11:10,350
really a joiner you know no I'm not a

249
00:11:13,850 --> 00:11:12,480
member of a golf club either I mean I

250
00:11:17,570 --> 00:11:13,860
don't know why I pick that example I

251
00:11:21,020 --> 00:11:17,580
think but right yeah you know it's all

252
00:11:24,020 --> 00:11:21,030
the same stuff it's all people misuse

253
00:11:26,990 --> 00:11:24,030
science misusing evidence just it with

254
00:11:28,850 --> 00:11:27,000
different scales of difficulty I suppose

255
00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:28,860
this whole thing I'm earring out up

256
00:11:33,890 --> 00:11:30,810
about peer review because it's often

257
00:11:36,170 --> 00:11:33,900
held up to be some mythical gold

258
00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:36,180
standard of everything BP it hasn't been

259
00:11:39,650 --> 00:11:38,130
peer-reviewed then then we don't want to

260
00:11:41,870 --> 00:11:39,660
know about it but as you point out

261
00:11:43,610 --> 00:11:41,880
that's problematic yeah I mean I've

262
00:11:45,770 --> 00:11:43,620
always been quite queasy about people

263
00:11:48,740 --> 00:11:45,780
saying I've always been quite queasy

264
00:11:50,570 --> 00:11:48,750
about any actual kind of fur hey dr. Ben

265
00:11:53,270 --> 00:11:50,580
what are your top five ways that people

266
00:11:54,830 --> 00:11:53,280
consumers can spot bad science and I and

267
00:11:57,740 --> 00:11:54,840
I think when you give people shortcuts

268
00:11:59,270 --> 00:11:57,750
like oh is it peer reviewed and I think

269
00:12:01,130 --> 00:11:59,280
that's almost an authority play I mean

270
00:12:04,310 --> 00:12:01,140
there's a huge amount of evidence from

271
00:12:08,420 --> 00:12:04,320
the research about research literature

272
00:12:09,620 --> 00:12:08,430
showing that and the actually academic

273
00:12:11,630 --> 00:12:09,630
journal editors and peer reviewers

274
00:12:13,070 --> 00:12:11,640
routinely fail in their duties and

275
00:12:14,510 --> 00:12:13,080
obligations and it's it's the least

276
00:12:16,610 --> 00:12:14,520
worst game in town but the academic

277
00:12:19,340 --> 00:12:16,620
literature is a buyer beware environment

278
00:12:21,110 --> 00:12:19,350
is there to be read critically by people

279
00:12:23,150 --> 00:12:21,120
who know what they're doing and often

280
00:12:25,060 --> 00:12:23,160
things that have shortcomings published

281
00:12:28,130 --> 00:12:25,070
and in fact you know I mean I teach

282
00:12:30,710 --> 00:12:28,140
critical appraisal and and the basics of

283
00:12:32,270 --> 00:12:30,720
Epidemiology and trial design and in

284
00:12:35,870 --> 00:12:32,280
Oxford and at London School of Hygiene

285
00:12:37,580 --> 00:12:35,880
and and really the thing that you really

286
00:12:40,070 --> 00:12:37,590
learn to appreciate it as he does he

287
00:12:42,650 --> 00:12:40,080
teach that over a decade or so is that

288
00:12:44,420 --> 00:12:42,660
you know obviously all studies have

289
00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:44,430
their strengths and weaknesses and

290
00:12:48,470 --> 00:12:46,530
there's no such thing as it's very rare

291
00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:48,480
to come across a perfect so every study

292
00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:51,210
has to take shortcuts for financial

293
00:12:54,980 --> 00:12:53,250
reasons or ethical reasons or practical

294
00:12:56,150 --> 00:12:54,990
reasons beer and so you always have to

295
00:12:58,060 --> 00:12:56,160
think critically about what the

296
00:13:00,170 --> 00:12:58,070
strengths and weaknesses of a study are

297
00:13:02,030 --> 00:13:00,180
moving on from that I mean what we've

298
00:13:04,310 --> 00:13:02,040
what we found with a lot of our work

299
00:13:06,770 --> 00:13:04,320
like as I said you know compare trials

300
00:13:08,420 --> 00:13:06,780
it's that not only just does peer review

301
00:13:10,850 --> 00:13:08,430
not work as every time so we know that

302
00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:10,860
people are reporting routinely

303
00:13:15,370 --> 00:13:12,330
misreporting their pre-specified

304
00:13:19,190 --> 00:13:15,380
outcomes switching the outcomes between

305
00:13:21,110 --> 00:13:19,200
registration and and the final trial

306
00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:21,120
report which is it it's just a yet

307
00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:22,770
another form of cherry-picking of

308
00:13:28,190 --> 00:13:25,650
results not only are people doing that

309
00:13:29,190 --> 00:13:28,200
in their trial reports but also when you

310
00:13:31,470 --> 00:13:29,200
point out that

311
00:13:33,990 --> 00:13:31,480
done that in a letter to the editor for

312
00:13:35,730 --> 00:13:34,000
publication they're failing to correct

313
00:13:37,620 --> 00:13:35,740
the record so we're finding actually

314
00:13:42,060 --> 00:13:37,630
some really quite serious structural

315
00:13:43,980 --> 00:13:42,070
flaws in in the whole mechanisms that we

316
00:13:46,770 --> 00:13:43,990
use in science and I think you know

317
00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:46,780
we're part of a wider community of

318
00:13:49,500 --> 00:13:47,890
people doing that kind of research

319
00:13:51,630 --> 00:13:49,510
methods and reporting work along with

320
00:13:53,490 --> 00:13:51,640
John Ioannidis of metrics instituting

321
00:13:55,530 --> 00:13:53,500
Stanford and that kind of thing and it's

322
00:13:57,390 --> 00:13:55,540
a really exciting field because it's

323
00:14:00,000 --> 00:13:57,400
about finessing and perfecting the way

324
00:14:01,860 --> 00:14:00,010
that science itself operates absolutely

325
00:14:04,170 --> 00:14:01,870
and it brings an interesting point to

326
00:14:07,830 --> 00:14:04,180
mine because I was just skimming through

327
00:14:10,620 --> 00:14:07,840
some of your online activities raiding

328
00:14:12,450 --> 00:14:10,630
youtube for example and if folks if you

329
00:14:14,010 --> 00:14:12,460
go to youtube and look up ben goldacre

330
00:14:16,230 --> 00:14:14,020
there are many examples of ben goldacre

331
00:14:17,670 --> 00:14:16,240
on there and I was hoping to come across

332
00:14:20,700 --> 00:14:17,680
one you did a number of years ago

333
00:14:22,530 --> 00:14:20,710
debating a homeopath on the BBC and he's

334
00:14:24,990 --> 00:14:22,540
bringing up things which is interesting

335
00:14:27,210 --> 00:14:25,000
like saying well course homeopathy works

336
00:14:29,130 --> 00:14:27,220
because we've had studies that show

337
00:14:30,900 --> 00:14:29,140
peer-reviewed studies that show it does

338
00:14:34,590 --> 00:14:30,910
work what do you say to that Ben go like

339
00:14:37,140 --> 00:14:34,600
you use smarmy doctor but it does bring

340
00:14:38,130 --> 00:14:37,150
home and we almost call that I don't

341
00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:38,140
know if you're familiar with the term

342
00:14:42,930 --> 00:14:41,050
Gish galloping this where you just load

343
00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:42,940
somebody up with endless studies they

344
00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:45,130
can't possibly refute on the spot but I

345
00:14:49,410 --> 00:14:46,450
think you did a pretty good job and that

346
00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:49,420
in that situation well I mean I think

347
00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:50,890
the interesting thing about homeopaths

348
00:14:56,490 --> 00:14:53,050
to me is that they use the same tricks

349
00:14:59,070 --> 00:14:56,500
as drug companies setting out to promote

350
00:15:01,020 --> 00:14:59,080
a new product I mean it's all part of

351
00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:01,030
the same it's all part of the same

352
00:15:05,490 --> 00:15:02,530
project I mean how many paths use them

353
00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:05,500
use those tricks in slightly cruder more

354
00:15:11,490 --> 00:15:09,490
more crass and obvious ways but you know

355
00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:11,500
you see gift galloping from drug

356
00:15:16,050 --> 00:15:13,330
companies when drug reps go out to

357
00:15:18,510 --> 00:15:16,060
promote products you see cherry-picking

358
00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:18,520
from drug companies but you also see

359
00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:21,250
cherry-picking from non-industry

360
00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:24,130
academic funded trials you know there's

361
00:15:27,270 --> 00:15:25,690
this global problem which I'm sure you

362
00:15:28,860 --> 00:15:27,280
know about which we've been camping

363
00:15:29,490 --> 00:15:28,870
campaigning on with the all trial stop

364
00:15:32,250 --> 00:15:29,500
net can

365
00:15:33,780 --> 00:15:32,260
of people with holding the results of

366
00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:33,790
clinical trials after they've completed

367
00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:36,490
and it's not just drug companies that do

368
00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:39,130
that it's also we have people doing

369
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:41,370
public health trials on promoting

370
00:15:46,770 --> 00:15:45,010
exercises surgical trials it's trance of

371
00:15:49,140 --> 00:15:46,780
talking treatments for depression across

372
00:15:53,850 --> 00:15:49,150
the board you see you see cherry picking

373
00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:53,860
and so you know I guess I don't I

374
00:15:59,490 --> 00:15:56,770
wouldn't identify homeopaths as a unique

375
00:16:00,990 --> 00:15:59,500
category no of Miss users of science I

376
00:16:03,450 --> 00:16:01,000
thought it was the author picture of

377
00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:03,460
you're misusing science in order to to

378
00:16:07,620 --> 00:16:05,410
promote their favored intervention

379
00:16:08,730 --> 00:16:07,630
whatever that might be I think I do

380
00:16:10,830 --> 00:16:08,740
actually think though that I mean the

381
00:16:13,950 --> 00:16:10,840
one thing that the one thing that quacks

382
00:16:17,220 --> 00:16:13,960
do to warrant attention online is that

383
00:16:19,170 --> 00:16:17,230
they behave on a personal level it's

384
00:16:21,900 --> 00:16:19,180
very kind of colorful and childish away

385
00:16:23,610 --> 00:16:21,910
and I kind of sometimes I feel sad I

386
00:16:28,940 --> 00:16:23,620
feel like the skeptic community don't go

387
00:16:31,770 --> 00:16:28,950
after a meteor targets by which I mean

388
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:31,780
bad behavior by academics or academic

389
00:16:38,700 --> 00:16:36,250
journals or drug companies but I feel

390
00:16:40,860 --> 00:16:38,710
like I can understand why and I think a

391
00:16:43,860 --> 00:16:40,870
lot of it is down to color when you when

392
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:43,870
you go after a homeopath and you point

393
00:16:48,300 --> 00:16:46,330
out that they're wrong they don't engage

394
00:16:50,750 --> 00:16:48,310
with you on the evidence generally they

395
00:16:52,980 --> 00:16:50,760
will they will sort of you know if

396
00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:52,990
research you on the internet and publish

397
00:16:58,530 --> 00:16:54,970
smear stories about your sister or

398
00:17:00,720 --> 00:16:58,540
they'll you know let try and contact

399
00:17:03,450 --> 00:17:00,730
your boss and have you silent store

400
00:17:06,360 --> 00:17:03,460
they'll publish some wildly defamatory

401
00:17:08,819 --> 00:17:06,370
series of smears or they'll go off on

402
00:17:10,620 --> 00:17:08,829
some giant conspiracy theory about the

403
00:17:12,090 --> 00:17:10,630
pharmaceutical industry no behave in

404
00:17:15,030 --> 00:17:12,100
ways that kind of naturally draw you

405
00:17:16,890 --> 00:17:15,040
into to a kind of colorful engagement

406
00:17:19,380 --> 00:17:16,900
about about how awful they are as people

407
00:17:21,949 --> 00:17:19,390
if you go off to somebody who's a little

408
00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:21,959
bit more professional then they'll be

409
00:17:27,809 --> 00:17:24,730
advised by a very competent reputation

410
00:17:30,300 --> 00:17:27,819
management arm of their company or by an

411
00:17:33,060 --> 00:17:30,310
independent PR firm he'll just go look

412
00:17:35,910 --> 00:17:33,070
if they've landed a good hit just walk

413
00:17:39,060 --> 00:17:35,920
away just just leave it just go move on

414
00:17:40,919 --> 00:17:39,070
and and so you know they don't they

415
00:17:42,580 --> 00:17:40,929
don't draw you into such a colorful

416
00:17:45,700 --> 00:17:42,590
series of

417
00:17:48,460 --> 00:17:45,710
bats so I think that's partly why quacks

418
00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:48,470
gets so much attention online I think so

419
00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:49,850
too and especially in the media because

420
00:17:54,130 --> 00:17:52,250
at the end of the day many media outlets

421
00:17:55,690 --> 00:17:54,140
are after the juicy story the

422
00:17:57,850 --> 00:17:55,700
interesting story the story as we say

423
00:17:59,860 --> 00:17:57,860
we'll get bums on seats and and if that

424
00:18:02,500 --> 00:17:59,870
story is you versus a homeopath that's

425
00:18:05,169 --> 00:18:02,510
an easy story for them isn't it yeah and

426
00:18:08,789 --> 00:18:05,179
and again you know as I say you know you

427
00:18:10,990 --> 00:18:08,799
do find the same patterns of behavior

428
00:18:12,820 --> 00:18:11,000
the world over and I supposed to

429
00:18:14,740 --> 00:18:12,830
undermine my previous point just from

430
00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:14,750
Holman and what one thing that we found

431
00:18:19,810 --> 00:18:16,490
with the compare trials project which

432
00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:19,820
absolutely amazed us was so with just

433
00:18:26,470 --> 00:18:21,770
about recommending we can compare trials

434
00:18:28,510 --> 00:18:26,480
is this epically nerdy battle so there's

435
00:18:30,490 --> 00:18:28,520
a long-standing problem in clinical

436
00:18:31,899 --> 00:18:30,500
trials research you're supposed to

437
00:18:33,580 --> 00:18:31,909
correctly report your pre specified

438
00:18:35,049 --> 00:18:33,590
outcomes so when you do a clinical trial

439
00:18:37,299 --> 00:18:35,059
you don't just say we're going to

440
00:18:39,340 --> 00:18:37,309
measure cardiovascular health because

441
00:18:41,139 --> 00:18:39,350
you could measure that in so many

442
00:18:43,690 --> 00:18:41,149
different ways an infinite number of

443
00:18:45,430 --> 00:18:43,700
different ways that you could you could

444
00:18:48,909 --> 00:18:45,440
cherry-pick and get a positive finding

445
00:18:51,430 --> 00:18:48,919
from and even an intervention that had

446
00:18:52,899 --> 00:18:51,440
no benefit at all so you have to pre

447
00:18:55,060 --> 00:18:52,909
specify exactly how you can a measure up

448
00:18:57,549 --> 00:18:55,070
say cardiovascular health which blood

449
00:18:58,960 --> 00:18:57,559
tests are going to use what cutoff value

450
00:19:01,659 --> 00:18:58,970
you're going to have for a positive or

451
00:19:02,740 --> 00:19:01,669
negative finding which diagnosis you're

452
00:19:04,539 --> 00:19:02,750
going to measure so is it going to be

453
00:19:06,580 --> 00:19:04,549
myocardial and function if so how you

454
00:19:07,779 --> 00:19:06,590
diagnose it that sort of thing and then

455
00:19:09,220 --> 00:19:07,789
when you come to report your clinical

456
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:09,230
trial you have to make sure that you

457
00:19:12,669 --> 00:19:11,210
report the outcomes that you've said you

458
00:19:14,950 --> 00:19:12,679
were going to report so it's about pre

459
00:19:17,919 --> 00:19:14,960
defining your success criteria for your

460
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:17,929
intervention now we've known forever in

461
00:19:21,730 --> 00:19:19,610
medicine that if you don't do this

462
00:19:23,470 --> 00:19:21,740
properly that your results are biased

463
00:19:25,659 --> 00:19:23,480
and exaggerated because it's just

464
00:19:27,159 --> 00:19:25,669
another form of cherry-picking and we've

465
00:19:29,019 --> 00:19:27,169
known this for over and we've also had

466
00:19:30,580 --> 00:19:29,029
things like the consort guidelines which

467
00:19:32,919 --> 00:19:30,590
are the guidelines on correct reporting

468
00:19:34,029 --> 00:19:32,929
clinical trials now all the academic

469
00:19:35,980 --> 00:19:34,039
journals that you've heard of in the

470
00:19:37,630 --> 00:19:35,990
world have signed up to the consort

471
00:19:39,430 --> 00:19:37,640
guidelines they've all said yes we're

472
00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:39,440
going to require trials to be properly

473
00:19:42,850 --> 00:19:41,690
registered and have a protocol and when

474
00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:42,860
they report their results we're going to

475
00:19:46,570 --> 00:19:44,570
make sure they report the outcomes that

476
00:19:49,149 --> 00:19:46,580
were pre specified before they started

477
00:19:50,950 --> 00:19:49,159
and yet there have been about 30 studies

478
00:19:53,049 --> 00:19:50,960
published showing that academic journals

479
00:19:54,899 --> 00:19:53,059
actually don't do that they allow people

480
00:19:56,789 --> 00:19:54,909
to engage in what's called

481
00:19:58,499 --> 00:19:56,799
come switching where the outcomes which

482
00:20:00,299 --> 00:19:58,509
where they switch in and report

483
00:20:03,989 --> 00:20:00,309
different outcomes to the ones that were

484
00:20:05,879 --> 00:20:03,999
pre specified so we didn't want to do

485
00:20:07,379 --> 00:20:05,889
yet another prevalent study where we say

486
00:20:09,930 --> 00:20:07,389
hey we looked at this and we found that

487
00:20:11,849 --> 00:20:09,940
40 or 60 percent of all trials

488
00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:11,859
misreported their pre specified outcomes

489
00:20:17,159 --> 00:20:15,369
instead we wanted to engage in what was

490
00:20:20,700 --> 00:20:17,169
if you like a kind of academic activism

491
00:20:23,460 --> 00:20:20,710
in one sense where we set out to measure

492
00:20:24,989 --> 00:20:23,470
we took to assess for every single trial

493
00:20:26,609 --> 00:20:24,999
published by the big five channels that

494
00:20:30,060 --> 00:20:26,619
New England Journal of Medicine jammer

495
00:20:32,639 --> 00:20:30,070
annals Lansing bmj for a six week period

496
00:20:34,589 --> 00:20:32,649
every single trial we assessed wherever

497
00:20:36,149 --> 00:20:34,599
it misreported its outcomes we didn't

498
00:20:38,159 --> 00:20:36,159
just quietly write that down and publish

499
00:20:40,139 --> 00:20:38,169
an overall prevalence figure we wrote a

500
00:20:41,969 --> 00:20:40,149
correction letter to the journal saying

501
00:20:43,589 --> 00:20:41,979
hey you've signed up to the console

502
00:20:46,049 --> 00:20:43,599
guidelines on correct trial reporting

503
00:20:48,029 --> 00:20:46,059
but this trial misreported its pre

504
00:20:49,379 --> 00:20:48,039
specified outcomes these are the

505
00:20:51,479 --> 00:20:49,389
discrepancies we think you should

506
00:20:54,659 --> 00:20:51,489
correct the record so this was really a

507
00:20:57,629 --> 00:20:54,669
project about firstly trying to correct

508
00:20:59,369 --> 00:20:57,639
the record itself but also secondly more

509
00:21:01,710 --> 00:20:59,379
importantly trying to see what happens

510
00:21:04,369 --> 00:21:01,720
when you try to correct the record and

511
00:21:06,869 --> 00:21:04,379
the answer is you see spectacular

512
00:21:09,509 --> 00:21:06,879
variation between journals and between

513
00:21:11,849 --> 00:21:09,519
trial lists in how they respond but you

514
00:21:14,519 --> 00:21:11,859
also see really very bad behavior in

515
00:21:16,859 --> 00:21:14,529
some cases so some journals instantly

516
00:21:19,169 --> 00:21:16,869
issue Corrections those bmj for example

517
00:21:20,940 --> 00:21:19,179
other journals rejected all of our

518
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:20,950
letters and said actually we don't care

519
00:21:24,180 --> 00:21:22,570
if people transgress the consort

520
00:21:26,159 --> 00:21:24,190
guidelines despite the fact that they've

521
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:26,169
been publicly listed as endorsing the

522
00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:28,210
consort guidelines forever some journals

523
00:21:33,089 --> 00:21:30,369
like animals publish this extraordinary

524
00:21:34,589 --> 00:21:33,099
like to page really a kind of

525
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:34,599
denunciation the sort of thing that

526
00:21:39,180 --> 00:21:37,330
you'd see on a homeopath blog in which

527
00:21:42,269 --> 00:21:39,190
they said things that were simply not

528
00:21:44,070 --> 00:21:42,279
true about our methods we shared all our

529
00:21:46,259 --> 00:21:44,080
data as we went so anybody could look

530
00:21:47,820 --> 00:21:46,269
and see our raw coding sheets so they

531
00:21:50,249 --> 00:21:47,830
could see exactly what we were

532
00:21:53,129 --> 00:21:50,259
classifying as a correct ly reported or

533
00:21:54,899 --> 00:21:53,139
miss reported outcome and they said that

534
00:21:56,580 --> 00:21:54,909
we classify things as correctly

535
00:21:59,119 --> 00:21:56,590
incorrectly reported when we haven't

536
00:22:02,730 --> 00:21:59,129
infiltrators at nijem just extraordinary

537
00:22:05,070 --> 00:22:02,740
extraordinary behavior and a face-saving

538
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:05,080
people offensive I suppose at best year

539
00:22:09,900 --> 00:22:06,330
you could call them motivated

540
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:09,910
misunderstandings and but and and again

541
00:22:13,020 --> 00:22:11,050
so one of the things that happens in

542
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:13,030
sort of skeptics Pat's with homeopaths

543
00:22:17,100 --> 00:22:14,890
is somebody writes something really

544
00:22:18,780 --> 00:22:17,110
stupid on their own homeopath blog and

545
00:22:20,669 --> 00:22:18,790
then you try and correct it in the

546
00:22:22,340 --> 00:22:20,679
comments section and they delete your

547
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:22,350
comments and won't allow you to yes

548
00:22:27,390 --> 00:22:24,730
that's a very common to Georgia so we

549
00:22:29,370 --> 00:22:27,400
found exactly that in the pages of the

550
00:22:30,810 --> 00:22:29,380
annals of internal medicine so I'll have

551
00:22:33,390 --> 00:22:30,820
internal medicine published this

552
00:22:35,340 --> 00:22:33,400
two-page denunciation that was riddled

553
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:35,350
with things that were just simply

554
00:22:39,390 --> 00:22:37,450
factually untrue on real black and white

555
00:22:41,820 --> 00:22:39,400
issues also internally inconsistent

556
00:22:44,570 --> 00:22:41,830
house is all very familiar from the

557
00:22:48,299 --> 00:22:44,580
world of older you homeopaths online and

558
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:48,309
when we attempted to submit corrections

559
00:22:54,690 --> 00:22:51,610
for publication online and in print they

560
00:22:55,860 --> 00:22:54,700
simply rejected them out of hand so I

561
00:22:58,740 --> 00:22:55,870
wrote you know I've written a piece in

562
00:23:01,049 --> 00:22:58,750
nature about this and we're we're

563
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:01,059
publishing our paper on the response of

564
00:23:04,650 --> 00:23:02,770
journals to our cohort of correction

565
00:23:07,169 --> 00:23:04,660
letters and also a separate paper on the

566
00:23:10,169 --> 00:23:07,179
responses of trial lists but what I find

567
00:23:11,970 --> 00:23:10,179
absolutely fascinating is as I said the

568
00:23:15,630 --> 00:23:11,980
commonalities between the way that

569
00:23:17,580 --> 00:23:15,640
homeopaths respond on their blogs when

570
00:23:19,110 --> 00:23:17,590
you criticize them and the way that the

571
00:23:21,330 --> 00:23:19,120
academic journal editors from the

572
00:23:24,570 --> 00:23:21,340
biggest academic journals in the world

573
00:23:26,780 --> 00:23:24,580
respond when you point out that they

574
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:26,790
have fallen short in absolute

575
00:23:31,260 --> 00:23:29,290
unambiguously proven black-and-white

576
00:23:33,810 --> 00:23:31,270
terms and really you couldn't put a

577
00:23:35,460 --> 00:23:33,820
cigarette paper between them and if you

578
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:35,470
want to find out more about that if you

579
00:23:41,010 --> 00:23:39,490
go to compare hyphen trials org you can

580
00:23:42,570 --> 00:23:41,020
see everything that we've been doing in

581
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:42,580
the compare trials project and I think

582
00:23:45,690 --> 00:23:44,410
you know it's interesting and fun well

583
00:23:48,510 --> 00:23:45,700
I'll certainly add a link to that on

584
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:48,520
this week's show notes folks here's the

585
00:23:52,470 --> 00:23:50,890
word gum and see Ben Goldacre live in

586
00:23:54,270 --> 00:23:52,480
person you'll be in Brisbane on the

587
00:23:55,860 --> 00:23:54,280
thursday the twenty second Friday the

588
00:23:58,049 --> 00:23:55,870
twenty-third we'll see him in Melbourne

589
00:24:00,450 --> 00:23:58,059
for you folks in Auckland he'll be there

590
00:24:03,510 --> 00:24:00,460
on Saturday to 24th and right here in

591
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:03,520
Sydney on Sunday the 25th where you can

592
00:24:09,690 --> 00:24:07,090
enjoy Ben's talk and pose questions

593
00:24:10,980 --> 00:24:09,700
which is an important year and during

594
00:24:12,780 --> 00:24:10,990
the show which will be something to look

595
00:24:15,389 --> 00:24:12,790
forward to for more information head to

596
00:24:17,489 --> 00:24:15,399
think inc org

597
00:24:19,859 --> 00:24:17,499
to snap up your tickets and you can

598
00:24:22,349 --> 00:24:19,869
always visit bad science dotnet to find

599
00:24:24,299 --> 00:24:22,359
out more about Ben Goldacre been after

600
00:24:26,219 --> 00:24:24,309
all these years it's a great pleasure to

601
00:24:27,899 --> 00:24:26,229
meet you in person Natalie you see nice

602
00:24:29,190 --> 00:24:27,909
to meet you and thank you and we

603
00:24:51,029 --> 00:24:29,200
certainly look forward to the upcoming

604
00:24:53,009 --> 00:24:51,039
talks cool cheerio I toss a coin hundred

605
00:24:55,799 --> 00:24:53,019
times and I'm allowed to withhold from

606
00:24:57,989 --> 00:24:55,809
you the ISIS half the times then I can

607
00:25:01,079 --> 00:24:57,999
convince you that I have a coin with two

608
00:25:02,969 --> 00:25:01,089
heads ok if we remove half of the data

609
00:25:06,149 --> 00:25:02,979
we can never know what the true effect

610
00:25:09,570 --> 00:25:06,159
size of these medicines we cannot make

611
00:25:11,729 --> 00:25:09,580
decisions in the absolute all of the

612
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:11,739
information in science we don't care how

613
00:25:14,849 --> 00:25:13,210
many letters you have after your name

614
00:25:16,649 --> 00:25:14,859
insights we want to know what your

615
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:16,659
reasons are for believing somehow do you

616
00:25:22,139 --> 00:25:18,369
know that something is good for us or

617
00:25:25,619 --> 00:25:22,149
bad for us an evening with Ben Goldacre

618
00:25:28,529 --> 00:25:25,629
only a perfect hucksters nonsensical

619
00:25:31,499 --> 00:25:28,539
naturopaths Andy intellectual

620
00:25:33,869 --> 00:25:31,509
anti-vaxxers slippery statisticians the

621
00:25:37,129 --> 00:25:33,879
journalists daring to declare meets is

622
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:37,139
critically carcinogenic let's not forget

623
00:25:42,869 --> 00:25:40,690
fraudulent pharmaceutical firms so when

624
00:25:45,629 --> 00:25:42,879
the public is kept in the dark about the

625
00:25:48,450 --> 00:25:45,639
detrimental duplicity of these

626
00:25:49,709 --> 00:25:48,460
declarations how many scientists does it

627
00:25:53,099 --> 00:25:49,719
take to screw in a light bulb that

628
00:25:55,259 --> 00:25:53,109
illuminates the facts just one talk to

629
00:25:58,649 --> 00:25:55,269
ben goldacre shining a light in

630
00:26:01,229 --> 00:25:58,659
Australia and New Zealand this September

631
00:26:03,989 --> 00:26:01,239
an evening with Ben Goldacre is brought

632
00:26:05,899 --> 00:26:03,999
to you by think ink the folks behind the

633
00:26:09,269 --> 00:26:05,909
Australian tools of dr. Neil deGrasse

634
00:26:12,419 --> 00:26:09,279
Tyson James the amazing Randi Steve

635
00:26:13,950 --> 00:26:12,429
Wozniak and many more Ben Goldacre will

636
00:26:16,710 --> 00:26:13,960
be speaking in Brisbane Melbourne

637
00:26:23,099 --> 00:26:16,720
Auckland and Sydney and to get your

638
00:26:25,830 --> 00:26:23,109
tickets visit w WN Korg a you and I hope

639
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:25,840
to see you at the Sydney talk on Sunday

640
00:26:59,840 --> 00:26:49,280
interesting claims questioning take

641
00:27:02,360 --> 00:26:59,850
stock with Shelly stalkin hi I'm Shelly

642
00:27:07,610 --> 00:27:02,370
stockin and this week I'm playing dr.

643
00:27:10,580 --> 00:27:07,620
Google a visit back in 2011 dr. Richie

644
00:27:12,650 --> 00:27:10,590
gave a talk entitled diagnosis by dr.

645
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:12,660
Google in which she discussed the

646
00:27:16,790 --> 00:27:14,330
increasing number of Australians

647
00:27:19,250 --> 00:27:16,800
self-diagnosing illness by searching for

648
00:27:21,430 --> 00:27:19,260
their symptoms on the internet I'm

649
00:27:23,870 --> 00:27:21,440
interested in what's changed since then

650
00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:23,880
so let's go back through the spooky

651
00:27:31,730 --> 00:27:29,370
mists of time not far though five years

652
00:27:33,970 --> 00:27:31,740
ago about eighty percent of Australians

653
00:27:36,470 --> 00:27:33,980
had access to the internet at home

654
00:27:38,330 --> 00:27:36,480
mobile devices were really starting to

655
00:27:40,790 --> 00:27:38,340
hit their straps as Internet accessing

656
00:27:43,910 --> 00:27:40,800
machines with about 11 million mobile

657
00:27:45,740 --> 00:27:43,920
subscriptions and about ninety three

658
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:45,750
percent of people on the internet used

659
00:27:50,450 --> 00:27:48,170
Google as their search engine of choice

660
00:27:52,370 --> 00:27:50,460
even my dad was warming up to the idea

661
00:27:54,140 --> 00:27:52,380
that the internet was a faster and more

662
00:27:58,160 --> 00:27:54,150
convenient source of information than

663
00:28:00,050 --> 00:27:58,170
the local library now let's zip forward

664
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:00,060
to the present day or at least to

665
00:28:05,270 --> 00:28:02,970
December 2015 when the Australian Bureau

666
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:05,280
of Statistics last published details of

667
00:28:10,580 --> 00:28:08,730
Australia's internet use the recent

668
00:28:12,470 --> 00:28:10,590
figures show that roughly eighty-six

669
00:28:14,810 --> 00:28:12,480
percent of all australian households are

670
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:14,820
connected to the internet an increase of

671
00:28:20,650 --> 00:28:18,570
six percent since 2011 there are just

672
00:28:23,390 --> 00:28:20,660
over 21 million mobile handset

673
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:23,400
subscriptions and Google is not only

674
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:25,290
used as our favorite search engine it's

675
00:28:29,780 --> 00:28:28,050
now one of our favorite verbs so what's

676
00:28:34,700 --> 00:28:29,790
changed as far as dr. Google is

677
00:28:36,050 --> 00:28:34,710
concerned a little but not a lot we

678
00:28:38,150 --> 00:28:36,060
still use the internet to research

679
00:28:40,940 --> 00:28:38,160
symptoms medications and other

680
00:28:43,250 --> 00:28:40,950
health-related information perhaps

681
00:28:45,530 --> 00:28:43,260
because of this the number of sites

682
00:28:46,130 --> 00:28:45,540
offering good quality reliable health

683
00:28:50,420 --> 00:28:46,140
information

684
00:28:51,950 --> 00:28:50,430
has increased unfortunately an increase

685
00:28:53,660 --> 00:28:51,960
in the number of sites offering

686
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:53,670
evidence-based health information

687
00:28:58,400 --> 00:28:56,490
doesn't necessarily mean the proportion

688
00:29:02,240 --> 00:28:58,410
of reliable health information has

689
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:02,250
increased it's still very easy to find

690
00:29:07,250 --> 00:29:04,890
unverified misleading or dangerous

691
00:29:10,250 --> 00:29:07,260
health information on the web and just

692
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:10,260
as easy to post it there and even the

693
00:29:15,140 --> 00:29:13,050
most reliable evidence based trustworthy

694
00:29:19,070 --> 00:29:15,150
health information can be useless if

695
00:29:21,170 --> 00:29:19,080
it's used in the wrong context overall

696
00:29:22,940 --> 00:29:21,180
we seem to be getting more innovative

697
00:29:25,010 --> 00:29:22,950
with the way we use the internet to

698
00:29:27,050 --> 00:29:25,020
manage our health creating more

699
00:29:31,190 --> 00:29:27,060
convenient in interactive ways to get

700
00:29:34,910 --> 00:29:31,200
advice tests and treatments online for

701
00:29:36,890 --> 00:29:34,920
example internet doctor Comte you is an

702
00:29:38,930 --> 00:29:36,900
Australian site that allows patients to

703
00:29:41,510 --> 00:29:38,940
discretely order sexual health tests

704
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:41,520
online and there are an increasing

705
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:43,890
number of telehealth services available

706
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:46,890
to remote and regional users providing

707
00:29:51,020 --> 00:29:48,810
access to medical practitioners via

708
00:29:54,890 --> 00:29:51,030
online video consultations and other

709
00:29:57,740 --> 00:29:54,900
electronic means as far as

710
00:29:59,570 --> 00:29:57,750
self-diagnosis goes however we seem to

711
00:30:02,270 --> 00:29:59,580
be in the same habits as we were five

712
00:30:05,330 --> 00:30:02,280
years ago Google is just too damn

713
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:05,340
convenient if not completely accurate to

714
00:30:08,810 --> 00:30:06,930
overlook as a symptom checking

715
00:30:10,550 --> 00:30:08,820
contraption when you have a sore throat

716
00:30:13,010 --> 00:30:10,560
and you want to know if it's just a cold

717
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:13,020
or that rare neck eating parasite you've

718
00:30:18,470 --> 00:30:16,410
heard about I decided to do a little

719
00:30:21,410 --> 00:30:18,480
experiment to compare dr. Google with

720
00:30:24,740 --> 00:30:21,420
real doctors I entered three symptoms

721
00:30:27,260 --> 00:30:24,750
into Google one by one for each symptom

722
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:27,270
I recorded the first three possible

723
00:30:31,010 --> 00:30:29,010
diagnoses that came up in my search

724
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:31,020
results regardless of where they came

725
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:34,170
from then I compared those possible

726
00:30:39,170 --> 00:30:36,450
diagnoses with advice from a range of

727
00:30:42,710 --> 00:30:39,180
medical experts including a GP and an

728
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:42,720
emergency specialist the questions I

729
00:30:47,870 --> 00:30:45,090
asked the doctors were what would you

730
00:30:50,990 --> 00:30:47,880
ask the patient what tests would you do

731
00:30:54,550 --> 00:30:51,000
and in your experience what's the most

732
00:30:57,700 --> 00:30:54,560
common diagnosis for this symptom

733
00:31:00,340 --> 00:30:57,710
symptom one was a three-day headache

734
00:31:02,950 --> 00:31:00,350
when I entered three-day headache into

735
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:02,960
Google the first three suggested results

736
00:31:11,110 --> 00:31:07,210
were a brain tumor aneurysm or migraine

737
00:31:13,419 --> 00:31:11,120
the humanist birds I consulted would ask

738
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:13,429
questions such as what are the symptoms

739
00:31:18,399 --> 00:31:15,770
do you have what medications are

740
00:31:20,350 --> 00:31:18,409
alternative therapies do you use have

741
00:31:24,460 --> 00:31:20,360
you had a headache like this before and

742
00:31:26,350 --> 00:31:24,470
what's your medical history they said

743
00:31:29,620 --> 00:31:26,360
they would perform neurological tests

744
00:31:32,470 --> 00:31:29,630
for weakness or abnormal reflexes check

745
00:31:35,230 --> 00:31:32,480
for fever and infection and depending on

746
00:31:39,909 --> 00:31:35,240
the patient's medical history order CT

747
00:31:41,950 --> 00:31:39,919
or MRI scans the most common diagnosis

748
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:41,960
for persistent headaches are according

749
00:31:47,980 --> 00:31:43,970
to the doctors I asked migraine or

750
00:31:50,669 --> 00:31:47,990
tension headache the next symptom I

751
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:50,679
asked Google about was swollen ankles

752
00:31:55,690 --> 00:31:53,450
google offered up heart disease kidney

753
00:31:59,680 --> 00:31:55,700
failure or liver failure as the first

754
00:32:01,180 --> 00:31:59,690
three diagnosis when I asked my medical

755
00:32:03,549 --> 00:32:01,190
peps they said they would want to

756
00:32:06,549 --> 00:32:03,559
investigate any recent ankle injuries

757
00:32:09,519 --> 00:32:06,559
any history of heart disease or varicose

758
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:09,529
veins whether the swelling is worse at

759
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:11,690
certain times of day and the medications

760
00:32:16,750 --> 00:32:13,490
are alternative treatments the patient

761
00:32:18,250 --> 00:32:16,760
is taking they would listen to the

762
00:32:21,970 --> 00:32:18,260
patient's heart beat and check their

763
00:32:24,010 --> 00:32:21,980
pulse examine the legs for DVT check

764
00:32:26,470 --> 00:32:24,020
their lungs skin and eyes for

765
00:32:29,350 --> 00:32:26,480
inflammation and if heart problems were

766
00:32:34,060 --> 00:32:29,360
suspected auto cardiac tests such as an

767
00:32:36,159 --> 00:32:34,070
echocardiogram or electrocardiograph the

768
00:32:38,260 --> 00:32:36,169
most common diagnosis for swollen ankles

769
00:32:41,409 --> 00:32:38,270
my experts came across were varicose

770
00:32:43,659 --> 00:32:41,419
veins and fluid buildup the last symptom

771
00:32:47,110 --> 00:32:43,669
I asked dr. Google to consider was a

772
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:47,120
sharp pain in the belly dr. Google

773
00:32:50,950 --> 00:32:48,850
quickly served up appendicitis

774
00:32:55,330 --> 00:32:50,960
gallstones and pregnancy as

775
00:32:57,789 --> 00:32:55,340
possibilities my real life doctor people

776
00:33:00,760 --> 00:32:57,799
wanted to know how long I'd had the pain

777
00:33:02,980 --> 00:33:00,770
whether I had any other symptoms when

778
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:02,990
the pain was at its worst what my bowel

779
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:05,450
movements were like what medications are

780
00:33:11,350 --> 00:33:07,610
alternative therapies are used what my

781
00:33:14,260 --> 00:33:11,360
diet was like and my medical history

782
00:33:16,210 --> 00:33:14,270
according to my chosen experts the most

783
00:33:17,590 --> 00:33:16,220
frequently diagnosed conditions for this

784
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:17,600
sort of abdominal pain are

785
00:33:25,210 --> 00:33:22,730
gastroenteritis and constipation to sum

786
00:33:27,430 --> 00:33:25,220
up my not very scientific findings

787
00:33:29,710 --> 00:33:27,440
there's no question that dr. Google

788
00:33:32,020 --> 00:33:29,720
beats human doctors hands down for speed

789
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:32,030
convenience and the sheer volume of

790
00:33:36,460 --> 00:33:33,890
information it can provide for self

791
00:33:38,590 --> 00:33:36,470
diagnosis of symptoms but it's not

792
00:33:40,630 --> 00:33:38,600
nearly as good at asking patients the

793
00:33:43,350 --> 00:33:40,640
right questions and making educated

794
00:33:46,060 --> 00:33:43,360
deductions from patient responses as a

795
00:33:48,220 --> 00:33:46,070
three-dimensional human doctor Google

796
00:33:50,289 --> 00:33:48,230
can't spot a skin cancer here a heart

797
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:50,299
murmur or feel that squishy bit on your

798
00:34:20,919 --> 00:33:55,250
leg now as in 2011 dr. Google must be

799
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:20,929
used with caution the skeptic zone live

800
00:34:27,129 --> 00:34:23,690
a special live recording of this very

801
00:34:30,369 --> 00:34:27,139
podcast at the Occidental hotel in

802
00:34:32,859 --> 00:34:30,379
Sydney just near we need station 43 York

803
00:34:36,340 --> 00:34:32,869
Street this is part of skeptics in the

804
00:34:38,830 --> 00:34:36,350
pub join me in the skeptic zone crew for

805
00:34:41,740 --> 00:34:38,840
live reports and interviews prize

806
00:34:43,780 --> 00:34:41,750
giveaways on the night everybody's

807
00:34:46,899 --> 00:34:43,790
welcome but for more information and to

808
00:34:49,629 --> 00:34:46,909
reserve your place visit meetup com /a

809
00:34:51,730 --> 00:34:49,639
ust skeptics there will be a link in

810
00:34:55,030 --> 00:34:51,740
this week show notes see you there at

811
00:34:57,359 --> 00:34:55,040
the skeptic zone live Thursday the sixth

812
00:35:30,870 --> 00:34:57,369
of October at the Occidental hotel

813
00:35:37,589 --> 00:35:33,460
now it's come to our attention in the

814
00:35:40,829 --> 00:35:37,599
last week or so that the movie the

815
00:35:46,779 --> 00:35:40,839
documentary you can't see the air quotes

816
00:35:49,359 --> 00:35:46,789
vexed Bakst is a scheduled slated to be

817
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:49,369
shown here in Australia at a regional

818
00:35:56,710 --> 00:35:53,450
Film Festival which is the Castlemaine

819
00:36:01,120 --> 00:35:56,720
local and international film festival or

820
00:36:03,519 --> 00:36:01,130
cliff CL iff for short now this is in

821
00:36:05,170 --> 00:36:03,529
the state of Victoria now I was

822
00:36:07,240 --> 00:36:05,180
contacted a little while ago by a

823
00:36:10,690 --> 00:36:07,250
concerned member of the public who noted

824
00:36:13,630 --> 00:36:10,700
this movie was slated to appear and

825
00:36:15,609 --> 00:36:13,640
since then this story has really

826
00:36:19,599 --> 00:36:15,619
developed some legs it's really taken

827
00:36:22,019 --> 00:36:19,609
off and I think the best summary of this

828
00:36:25,269 --> 00:36:22,029
affair can be found once again at

829
00:36:30,009 --> 00:36:25,279
reasonable Hank reasonable Hank calm

830
00:36:31,420 --> 00:36:30,019
where Hank and his snoops have come up

831
00:36:34,799 --> 00:36:31,430
with some very interesting information

832
00:36:38,980 --> 00:36:34,809
indeed let me give you an overview of

833
00:36:41,589 --> 00:36:38,990
Hanks blog post on this issue as posted

834
00:36:43,539 --> 00:36:41,599
on the twentieth of sep tember victorian

835
00:36:47,079 --> 00:36:43,549
film festival embroiled in

836
00:36:50,529 --> 00:36:47,089
anti-vaccination social media train

837
00:36:53,049 --> 00:36:50,539
wreck on friday the 16th of sep tember a

838
00:36:55,029 --> 00:36:53,059
little before lunchtime i was alerted to

839
00:36:57,999 --> 00:36:55,039
an upcoming showing of andrew wakefield

840
00:37:00,819 --> 00:36:58,009
dishonest anti-vaccination vanity film

841
00:37:03,549 --> 00:37:00,829
waxed at a victorian regional film

842
00:37:05,950 --> 00:37:03,559
festival called cliff castlemaine local

843
00:37:08,170 --> 00:37:05,960
and international film festival the

844
00:37:11,499 --> 00:37:08,180
festival has been promoted by the

845
00:37:14,500 --> 00:37:11,509
president of the discredited australian

846
00:37:17,620 --> 00:37:14,510
vaccination skeptics network Tasha David

847
00:37:20,980 --> 00:37:17,630
on the node jab no pay no way

848
00:37:22,990 --> 00:37:20,990
anti-vaccination protests event page now

849
00:37:26,170 --> 00:37:23,000
Hank provides us with the screen capture

850
00:37:27,670 --> 00:37:26,180
their there is a film festival in

851
00:37:30,550 --> 00:37:27,680
castlemaine Victoria that will be

852
00:37:32,950 --> 00:37:30,560
showing vax on octob eight if you can

853
00:37:35,110 --> 00:37:32,960
get there and support the first official

854
00:37:38,050 --> 00:37:35,120
screening of this must-see documentary

855
00:37:41,050 --> 00:37:38,060
please do and together with a link for

856
00:37:42,820 --> 00:37:41,060
tickets Hank goes on I tweeted that

857
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:42,830
screenshot along with the following

858
00:37:47,980 --> 00:37:45,890
screenshot from the cliff web page

859
00:37:51,670 --> 00:37:47,990
featuring the anti-vaccination film of

860
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:51,680
note please see who is cliff tab at the

861
00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:54,290
top of this screenshot will need that

862
00:37:58,950 --> 00:37:57,290
for later and Hank once again provides

863
00:38:02,290 --> 00:37:58,960
us with the screenshot from the

864
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:02,300
festival's main page and at the top

865
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:04,970
there is a link a tab that says who is

866
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:07,610
cliff Tasha David also promoted the

867
00:38:12,970 --> 00:38:09,770
festival on the Australian vaccination

868
00:38:16,570 --> 00:38:12,980
skeptics Network Facebook page on Friday

869
00:38:20,620 --> 00:38:16,580
man once again the screen shot is

870
00:38:23,110 --> 00:38:20,630
provided with her posting kasha David

871
00:38:25,270 --> 00:38:23,120
shared it on the avian Facebook page on

872
00:38:27,940 --> 00:38:25,280
Saturday once again another screenshot

873
00:38:31,660 --> 00:38:27,950
Tasha David also promoted the event in

874
00:38:34,540 --> 00:38:31,670
the vax australia facebook group with

875
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:34,550
more screenshots and goes on when the

876
00:38:39,190 --> 00:38:36,770
president of a disreputable callous

877
00:38:40,990 --> 00:38:39,200
manatee vaccination organization which

878
00:38:43,900 --> 00:38:41,000
is the recipient of a public health

879
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:43,910
warning is your ally in the promotion of

880
00:38:49,210 --> 00:38:46,610
one of your films you really need to sit

881
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:49,220
back and introspect don't you think

882
00:38:54,790 --> 00:38:52,330
wouldn't you that vax tis a dishonest

883
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:54,800
exposition is not news to the

884
00:38:59,280 --> 00:38:56,690
evidenced-based researchers health

885
00:39:03,490 --> 00:38:59,290
professionals and journalists for an

886
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:03,500
exquisite explanation of the quote cdc

887
00:39:07,630 --> 00:39:05,450
whistleblower in quote manufactured

888
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:07,640
controversy which is at the heart of the

889
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:11,050
subject matter please refer to this post

890
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:15,290
MMR the cdc and brain hooker a guide for

891
00:39:20,050 --> 00:39:17,450
parents and the media and you can click

892
00:39:22,090 --> 00:39:20,060
that link if you visit this blog which i

893
00:39:24,300 --> 00:39:22,100
will be linking to in the show notes in

894
00:39:26,740 --> 00:39:24,310
a film review for The Hollywood Reporter

895
00:39:27,470 --> 00:39:26,750
infectious disease specialist dr. Paul

896
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:27,480
offered

897
00:39:34,700 --> 00:39:31,170
wrote if MMR really does cause autism

898
00:39:37,270 --> 00:39:34,710
why haven't the link been found in 15

899
00:39:39,770 --> 00:39:37,280
other studies many of which included

900
00:39:43,310 --> 00:39:39,780
african-americans and almost all of

901
00:39:45,620 --> 00:39:43,320
which didn't involve the CDC there are

902
00:39:49,180 --> 00:39:45,630
the whistle blows who just haven't come

903
00:39:52,220 --> 00:39:49,190
forward yet the real explanation for vax

904
00:39:55,310 --> 00:39:52,230
revelations isn't conspiracy or hidden

905
00:39:57,500 --> 00:39:55,320
data yet something else when compared

906
00:40:00,349 --> 00:39:57,510
with their Caucasian counterparts

907
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:00,359
african-american boys in Atlanta in 1994

908
00:40:05,810 --> 00:40:02,850
were under vaccinated in order to

909
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:05,820
qualify for autism support programs this

910
00:40:10,550 --> 00:40:08,130
subset of under vaccinated children with

911
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:10,560
autism had to get vaccinated in other

912
00:40:15,500 --> 00:40:12,570
words it wasn't the MMR that caused

913
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:15,510
autism it was the diagnosis of autism

914
00:40:20,900 --> 00:40:17,690
that had caused them to get there are

915
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:20,910
not surprisingly this is never explained

916
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:25,650
in the film man Hank goes on to quote

917
00:40:31,250 --> 00:40:27,930
some more examples from the media which

918
00:40:34,550 --> 00:40:31,260
you can peruse for yourself on Friday I

919
00:40:37,550 --> 00:40:34,560
tagged cliff in a tweet after finding

920
00:40:39,590 --> 00:40:37,560
their handle cliff deleted their Twitter

921
00:40:42,410 --> 00:40:39,600
account within the two following days

922
00:40:45,050 --> 00:40:42,420
many others also tweeted their

923
00:40:47,599 --> 00:40:45,060
displeasure happy festival organizers

924
00:40:50,599 --> 00:40:47,609
and we have a screen capture from

925
00:40:54,910 --> 00:40:50,609
reasonable Hank himself and his tweet

926
00:40:59,930 --> 00:40:54,920
says film festival organizers at cliff

927
00:41:03,410 --> 00:40:59,940
0408 9876 care little for the health of

928
00:41:07,910 --> 00:41:03,420
babies hashtag stop avian hashtag jill

929
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:07,920
hennessy MP hashtag spring st cliff

930
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:10,290
responded to both me and my friend

931
00:41:14,810 --> 00:41:12,450
shelly shelly by the way is our reporter

932
00:41:17,150 --> 00:41:14,820
shelly stockin with the same response

933
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:17,160
which was aimed at claiming disinterest

934
00:41:22,370 --> 00:41:18,930
in the subject matter of Wakefield's

935
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:22,380
fraudulent film and the twit from cliff

936
00:41:27,620 --> 00:41:25,650
reads at reasonable underscore Hank we

937
00:41:29,870 --> 00:41:27,630
hope you have seen the movie we don't

938
00:41:32,630 --> 00:41:29,880
necessarily agree with the ideas in any

939
00:41:35,090 --> 00:41:32,640
film shown we want viewers to decide

940
00:41:37,700 --> 00:41:35,100
those of us who have been following the

941
00:41:41,090 --> 00:41:37,710
tactics of the anti-vaxxers and their

942
00:41:43,190 --> 00:41:41,100
apologists for some time knew precisely

943
00:41:44,720 --> 00:41:43,200
what was it plain an attempt to frame

944
00:41:47,180 --> 00:41:44,730
the film's viewing as a legitimate

945
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:47,190
debate between equal opposing camps

946
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:50,850
which it is not philosopher dr. Patrick

947
00:41:54,260 --> 00:41:52,650
Stokes is one of those who is

948
00:41:56,150 --> 00:41:54,270
well-versed in the tactics of the

949
00:41:58,280 --> 00:41:56,160
anti-vaccination lobby man its

950
00:42:02,660 --> 00:41:58,290
supporters and Patrick Stokes has

951
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:02,670
tweeted and seen via a screenshot not

952
00:42:08,210 --> 00:42:06,090
good enough this is not a difference of

953
00:42:11,720 --> 00:42:08,220
opinion topic why are you giving

954
00:42:14,510 --> 00:42:11,730
platform to anti vax lies and goes on

955
00:42:17,390 --> 00:42:14,520
what followed was a social media train

956
00:42:20,090 --> 00:42:17,400
wreck which was played out in an attempt

957
00:42:23,090 --> 00:42:20,100
to erase questions of organizers bias

958
00:42:25,310 --> 00:42:23,100
which would cast doubt on cliffs

959
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:25,320
attempts to appear to be merely a

960
00:42:31,550 --> 00:42:28,290
disinterested player a provocateur of

961
00:42:33,950 --> 00:42:31,560
uneasy disclosure now Hank puts up a new

962
00:42:37,490 --> 00:42:33,960
screenshot and says this screen shot was

963
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:37,500
taken from a Wayback Machine snapshot on

964
00:42:44,530 --> 00:42:41,970
always 13th 2016 as we can see the who

965
00:42:47,150 --> 00:42:44,540
is cliff tab as referred to earlier

966
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:47,160
clearly shows that the leading organizer

967
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:50,850
or at least the top position of the list

968
00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:54,090
of organizers is Nicky valentini and

969
00:42:59,300 --> 00:42:57,330
Hank has that screenshot and Hank goes

970
00:43:01,880 --> 00:42:59,310
on to say after me and many friends

971
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:01,890
started looking into the organizers the

972
00:43:07,730 --> 00:43:05,010
who is cliff page was deleted from the

973
00:43:11,060 --> 00:43:07,740
cliff website thanks to friends with

974
00:43:14,060 --> 00:43:11,070
Swift minds and quick fingers we were

975
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:14,070
able to retain this screenshot of an

976
00:43:20,870 --> 00:43:16,650
anti-vaccination post promoting Tasha

977
00:43:23,450 --> 00:43:20,880
David's anti-tax petition from the

978
00:43:26,870 --> 00:43:23,460
facebook profile of a cliff organizer

979
00:43:28,940 --> 00:43:26,880
Nicki valentini and the postings is a

980
00:43:30,860 --> 00:43:28,950
meme there's a little baby there a

981
00:43:34,130 --> 00:43:30,870
little oil a young child looking a

982
00:43:36,770 --> 00:43:34,140
little bit dumb sad I suppose there has

983
00:43:39,050 --> 00:43:36,780
to be a choice minister Scott Morrison

984
00:43:41,150 --> 00:43:39,060
don't punish parents for making an

985
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:41,160
informed choice about their children's

986
00:43:47,980 --> 00:43:45,330
health all parents deserve dot and I am

987
00:43:50,450 --> 00:43:47,990
it's a link to a petition on change.org

988
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:50,460
the profile and therefore the

989
00:43:54,950 --> 00:43:53,130
anti-vaccination post as well has been

990
00:43:57,230 --> 00:43:54,960
deleted from facebook

991
00:43:59,480 --> 00:43:57,240
but it wasn't deleted before valentini

992
00:44:01,609 --> 00:43:59,490
and tempted to hide her anti-vaccination

993
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:01,619
affiliations with a quick attempt at a

994
00:44:07,820 --> 00:44:05,010
name change so we're before the posting

995
00:44:10,990 --> 00:44:07,830
had her own name the new posting which

996
00:44:14,750 --> 00:44:11,000
is identical is under somebody called

997
00:44:17,420 --> 00:44:14,760
Modi num num we expect this behavior in

998
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:17,430
fact we are surprised when an organizer

999
00:44:22,490 --> 00:44:19,650
or a venue holds up their hands

1000
00:44:25,370 --> 00:44:22,500
immediately and says fair cop we were

1001
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:25,380
wrong in quote it doesn't happen very

1002
00:44:30,260 --> 00:44:27,930
often sometimes it takes a while for a

1003
00:44:31,940 --> 00:44:30,270
venue or an organizer to acquaint

1004
00:44:34,339 --> 00:44:31,950
themselves with the subject matter

1005
00:44:37,130 --> 00:44:34,349
before making a decision in the interest

1006
00:44:39,170 --> 00:44:37,140
of Public Health and babies usually once

1007
00:44:41,839 --> 00:44:39,180
a venue works out that they have been

1008
00:44:44,599 --> 00:44:41,849
taken for chumps by the anti-vaccination

1009
00:44:47,690 --> 00:44:44,609
activists like the venues who all

1010
00:44:49,849 --> 00:44:47,700
canceled events for the 2015 speaking

1011
00:44:52,579 --> 00:44:49,859
tour of Public Health enemy Cherie

1012
00:44:54,710 --> 00:44:52,589
Tenpenny they will do the right thing

1013
00:44:57,290 --> 00:44:54,720
especially when it starts looking

1014
00:44:59,440 --> 00:44:57,300
awkward for public relations and the

1015
00:45:02,390 --> 00:44:59,450
shareholders but we are very used to

1016
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:02,400
anti-vaccination apologists trying to

1017
00:45:07,700 --> 00:45:05,130
treat everyone like chumps like they

1018
00:45:11,839 --> 00:45:07,710
don't have any skin in their particular

1019
00:45:14,900 --> 00:45:11,849
game they do they just know how bad it

1020
00:45:18,170 --> 00:45:14,910
looks so they attempt to hide it and all

1021
00:45:22,660 --> 00:45:18,180
the babies can go to hell and Hank ends

1022
00:45:26,150 --> 00:45:22,670
this post with a very interesting note

1023
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:26,160
one of the partners of the film festival

1024
00:45:32,620 --> 00:45:30,930
is the mount Alexander Shire Council the

1025
00:45:35,660 --> 00:45:32,630
mount Alexander Shire Council's

1026
00:45:38,570 --> 00:45:35,670
immunization page is here link provided

1027
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:38,580
the mount Alexander shy council's

1028
00:45:45,349 --> 00:45:41,210
contact pages here also another link

1029
00:45:49,089 --> 00:45:45,359
this is this is a very important issue

1030
00:45:51,890 --> 00:45:49,099
on this matter and one that our own

1031
00:45:53,630 --> 00:45:51,900
Heidi Robertson the raw skeptic from the

1032
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:53,640
northern rivers of vaccination

1033
00:45:59,150 --> 00:45:55,490
supporters took full advantage of and

1034
00:46:03,470 --> 00:45:59,160
she wrote to the Alexander Shire Council

1035
00:46:06,050 --> 00:46:03,480
here is her letter from Heidi Robinson I

1036
00:46:08,510 --> 00:46:06,060
am writing to express my dismay that

1037
00:46:09,240 --> 00:46:08,520
your partnership with cliff castle lane

1038
00:46:12,090 --> 00:46:09,250
local and

1039
00:46:14,070 --> 00:46:12,100
International Film Festival essentially

1040
00:46:16,230 --> 00:46:14,080
means that you are lending them support

1041
00:46:19,050 --> 00:46:16,240
for their screening of the

1042
00:46:22,230 --> 00:46:19,060
anti-vaccination documentary backed I

1043
00:46:23,850 --> 00:46:22,240
find it disturbing that as an Australian

1044
00:46:26,190 --> 00:46:23,860
government agency who supports

1045
00:46:30,510 --> 00:46:26,200
immunization with a link to their very

1046
00:46:33,270 --> 00:46:30,520
own page on the topic that you would

1047
00:46:35,970 --> 00:46:33,280
lend your support to such an event this

1048
00:46:38,190 --> 00:46:35,980
event is purely and simply a threat to

1049
00:46:40,950 --> 00:46:38,200
public health the person who made and

1050
00:46:43,050 --> 00:46:40,960
produced this film was struck off the

1051
00:46:45,690 --> 00:46:43,060
medical register after he was found

1052
00:46:48,060 --> 00:46:45,700
guilty of fraud and unethical medical

1053
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:48,070
procedures on children relating to his

1054
00:46:54,780 --> 00:46:52,210
fudged data surrounding the MMR vaccine

1055
00:46:57,540 --> 00:46:54,790
this is not as these people would have

1056
00:46:59,550 --> 00:46:57,550
you believe an issue of free speech the

1057
00:47:02,010 --> 00:46:59,560
makers and producers have made their

1058
00:47:05,340 --> 00:47:02,020
statements and positions quite clearly

1059
00:47:07,710 --> 00:47:05,350
in many media outlets and social media

1060
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:07,720
platforms so they are hardly being

1061
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:10,930
suppressed Council does not have to

1062
00:47:15,300 --> 00:47:12,970
support the platform for this dangerous

1063
00:47:18,180 --> 00:47:15,310
nonsense and I would appreciate it if

1064
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:18,190
you withdrew your support and made a

1065
00:47:23,610 --> 00:47:21,010
public statement to this effect thank

1066
00:47:25,950 --> 00:47:23,620
you for your time and here's a letter

1067
00:47:29,150 --> 00:47:25,960
written to the council by Sarah Turnbull

1068
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:29,160
who also kindly got in touch with me

1069
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:32,410
dear sir or madam I am writing to

1070
00:47:37,860 --> 00:47:35,170
suggest that the council make up for its

1071
00:47:40,860 --> 00:47:37,870
involvement in showing vax to the

1072
00:47:43,830 --> 00:47:40,870
anti-vaccination documentary by making a

1073
00:47:48,930 --> 00:47:43,840
donation to the following charitable

1074
00:47:50,910 --> 00:47:48,940
fund with a link to light for Riley this

1075
00:47:54,030 --> 00:47:50,920
fund was set up by the parents of Riley

1076
00:47:55,890 --> 00:47:54,040
Hughes this might go some way towards

1077
00:47:59,490 --> 00:47:55,900
addressing the public health and public

1078
00:48:03,060 --> 00:47:59,500
health relations disaster this incident

1079
00:48:05,370 --> 00:48:03,070
has caused and our reporter show each

1080
00:48:07,950 --> 00:48:05,380
token that's also chimed in the amount

1081
00:48:09,450 --> 00:48:07,960
alexander shire council i am concerned

1082
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:09,460
about your partnership with the

1083
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:11,770
Castlemaine local and international film

1084
00:48:16,740 --> 00:48:14,290
festival as i feel it represents a

1085
00:48:18,950 --> 00:48:16,750
conflict of interest with regard to

1086
00:48:20,670 --> 00:48:18,960
public health the first of all is

1087
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:20,680
unapologetically showing the

1088
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:22,810
anti-vaccination film by

1089
00:48:28,170 --> 00:48:25,690
struck-off dr. Andrew Wakefield which

1090
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:28,180
misleadingly brings into question the

1091
00:48:33,630 --> 00:48:30,610
safety and effectiveness of childhood

1092
00:48:36,270 --> 00:48:33,640
vaccines with no reliable evidence to

1093
00:48:38,370 --> 00:48:36,280
back it up given your commendable

1094
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:38,380
support for and provision of

1095
00:48:42,990 --> 00:48:40,210
immunization services in the community

1096
00:48:46,110 --> 00:48:43,000
your partnership with this film festival

1097
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:46,120
sends a conflicting message I fear that

1098
00:48:51,540 --> 00:48:48,570
the film will discourage viewers from

1099
00:48:53,850 --> 00:48:51,550
vaccinating their families as previous

1100
00:48:57,120 --> 00:48:53,860
publications and campaigns by Wakefield

1101
00:49:00,150 --> 00:48:57,130
have previously done I understand that

1102
00:49:03,270 --> 00:49:00,160
the cliff organizers are free to show

1103
00:49:05,790 --> 00:49:03,280
this film at their festival but I do not

1104
00:49:08,670 --> 00:49:05,800
understand why the council so clearly

1105
00:49:11,580 --> 00:49:08,680
committed to vaccination as a public

1106
00:49:13,470 --> 00:49:11,590
health initiative would support it thank

1107
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:13,480
you for the opportunity to express my

1108
00:49:20,100 --> 00:49:16,570
concerns and by now I imagine there are

1109
00:49:24,930 --> 00:49:20,110
many many many many more letters of a

1110
00:49:27,720 --> 00:49:24,940
similar theme flooding into the council

1111
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:27,730
chambers so thanks again to reasonable

1112
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:31,690
Hank and his merry band I guess you

1113
00:49:36,750 --> 00:49:34,090
would say for doing such diligent good

1114
00:49:39,270 --> 00:49:36,760
work in finding out a lot about this

1115
00:49:42,090 --> 00:49:39,280
issue and it's also i noticed been

1116
00:49:44,340 --> 00:49:42,100
reported in other media outlets man

1117
00:49:46,290 --> 00:49:44,350
thank you also to Fiona O'Leary all the

1118
00:49:48,870 --> 00:49:46,300
way over there in Ireland who was a

1119
00:49:51,180 --> 00:49:48,880
guest on the skeptic zone way back in

1120
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:51,190
july this year who was also been

1121
00:49:58,260 --> 00:49:55,210
fighting against the movement behind vax

1122
00:50:00,450 --> 00:49:58,270
in her part of the world as she was

1123
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:00,460
horrified when she learned that this

1124
00:50:04,380 --> 00:50:02,050
film was to be shown in Australia and

1125
00:50:07,860 --> 00:50:04,390
she actually sent me some very very good

1126
00:50:09,420 --> 00:50:07,870
advice indeed about that so thank you

1127
00:50:11,370 --> 00:50:09,430
hank Thank You Fiona and thank you heidi

1128
00:50:14,460 --> 00:50:11,380
for all helping to contribute to this

1129
00:50:16,410 --> 00:50:14,470
story this week and we will keep skeptic

1130
00:50:28,250 --> 00:50:16,420
zone listen as up-to-date as this story

1131
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:32,840
you told me

1132
00:50:39,529 --> 00:50:36,410
exist you

1133
00:50:41,690 --> 00:50:39,539
SI esta sample idiot hey Sal who guys

1134
00:50:43,910 --> 00:50:41,700
guys I just had the most amazing

1135
00:50:45,769 --> 00:50:43,920
experience what experience unders unders

1136
00:50:47,569 --> 00:50:45,779
have you been to the pub I told you not

1137
00:50:50,089 --> 00:50:47,579
to hang out with mash you know he was

1138
00:50:52,579 --> 00:50:50,099
blessed by peter Popoff no yellow no i'm

1139
00:50:54,950 --> 00:50:52,589
not talking about psychics it was a

1140
00:50:56,750 --> 00:50:54,960
really SP experience now you have been

1141
00:50:59,480 --> 00:50:56,760
to the pub either that or you've been

1142
00:51:01,910 --> 00:50:59,490
smoking something no pontus the ESB is

1143
00:51:04,010 --> 00:51:01,920
the European skeptics podcast it's the

1144
00:51:06,140 --> 00:51:04,020
most amazing thing you get to know so

1145
00:51:08,990 --> 00:51:06,150
much about skeptics and their activities

1146
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:09,000
across Europe you know events hot topics

1147
00:51:13,309 --> 00:51:11,130
and interviews with lots of interesting

1148
00:51:15,079 --> 00:51:13,319
people oh wow cool by the way pointers

1149
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:15,089
you just committed the false dichotomy

1150
00:51:20,329 --> 00:51:17,490
fallacy I guess that means I'm really

1151
00:51:22,370 --> 00:51:20,339
wrong yep and you can even learn about

1152
00:51:24,829 --> 00:51:22,380
those fallacies in the show and hear

1153
00:51:27,109 --> 00:51:24,839
about people spreading silly ideas you

1154
00:51:30,079 --> 00:51:27,119
should really check it out it's the ESP

1155
00:51:32,779 --> 00:51:30,089
the European skeptics podcast it's on

1156
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:32,789
never weak alright so where can I get

1157
00:51:37,789 --> 00:51:35,130
this is the experience it sounds good

1158
00:51:40,849 --> 00:51:37,799
you can go online at the ESP do to you

1159
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:40,859
follow it on twitter at es podcast

1160
00:51:46,010 --> 00:51:43,890
underscore EU or like the podcast on

1161
00:51:49,069 --> 00:51:46,020
facebook oh and you can also contact the

1162
00:51:52,849 --> 00:51:49,079
show by sending them an email to info at

1163
00:51:54,950 --> 00:51:52,859
the espp you and if you want to

1164
00:51:57,710 --> 00:51:54,960
subscribe do a quick search for the

1165
00:52:03,680 --> 00:51:57,720
european skeptic podcast on soundcloud

1166
00:52:07,340 --> 00:52:03,690
itunes or stitcher I don't know how you

1167
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:19,530
you

1168
00:52:29,110 --> 00:52:24,170
skeptic zone this week and for those of

1169
00:52:31,420 --> 00:52:29,120
you in Sydney Auckland Melbourne and

1170
00:52:35,290 --> 00:52:31,430
Brisbane I hope you have the chance to

1171
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:35,300
get along and here Ben Goldacre live on

1172
00:52:40,420 --> 00:52:38,290
stage and those people in Australia the

1173
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:40,430
interviewer on stage will be none other

1174
00:52:45,910 --> 00:52:43,850
than dr. Brad McCoy well known from the

1175
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:45,920
TV show embarrassing bodies down under

1176
00:52:50,950 --> 00:52:48,770
and a member of Australian skeptics to

1177
00:52:53,230 --> 00:52:50,960
boot coming up on next week's show I

1178
00:52:57,550 --> 00:52:53,240
think we'll be bringing you reports from

1179
00:53:00,820 --> 00:52:57,560
the paranormal convention main heart and

1180
00:53:04,420 --> 00:53:00,830
I will be heading to soon also hopefully

1181
00:53:05,980 --> 00:53:04,430
i chat with the author Lynn Kelly who

1182
00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:05,990
will be speaking at the Australian

1183
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:07,490
skeptics dinner meeting in a couple of

1184
00:53:12,790 --> 00:53:10,850
days but for this week with them with

1185
00:53:15,180 --> 00:53:12,800
Henrietta and moored actually locked out

1186
00:53:17,650 --> 00:53:15,190
of the office the studio this time

1187
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:17,660
sometimes I can see little paws coming

1188
00:53:22,510 --> 00:53:20,210
under the door trying to get in they do

1189
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:22,520
like being with people but this week

1190
00:53:31,450 --> 00:53:24,170
this is Richard Saunders signing off

1191
00:53:33,090 --> 00:53:31,460
from Sydney Australia you've been

1192
00:53:36,610 --> 00:53:33,100
listening to the skeptics own podcast

1193
00:53:39,670 --> 00:53:36,620
visit our website at wwc a petting zoo

1194
00:53:43,540 --> 00:53:39,680
TV for contacts an archive of all

1195
00:53:45,850 --> 00:53:43,550
episodes since 2008 and our online store

1196
00:53:48,570 --> 00:53:45,860
please support the skeptic zone by

1197
00:53:51,580 --> 00:53:48,580
following us on twitter at skeptic zone

1198
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:51,590
liking us on facebook and leaving a

1199
00:53:57,490 --> 00:53:54,650
review on iTunes you can also show your

1200
00:54:00,460 --> 00:53:57,500
support by subscribing via paypal for as

1201
00:54:02,230 --> 00:54:00,470
little as ninety-nine cents a week the

1202
00:54:03,850 --> 00:54:02,240
skeptic zone is an independent

1203
00:54:06,310 --> 00:54:03,860
production the views and opinions

1204
00:54:07,930 --> 00:54:06,320
expressed on the skeptic zone and not

1205
00:54:10,810 --> 00:54:07,940
necessarily those of Australian